Pete wasn’t especially fast or especially strong. His defense was below average and he never really found a position where he seemed to belong. He didn’t have a lot of natural ability and wasn’t the brightest bulb on the tree.
And yet he was a great player.
He played every day, hard every day, and he kept working at it forever. At age 44 he could barely hit the ball out of the infield and his home-to-first sprint needed to be timed with a calendar rather than a stopwatch, but he achieved an on-base percentage of .395 (higher than Tony Gwynn’s lifetime OBP), and managed to hobble to the plate more than 500 times while managing the team to 89 wins.
In addition to hits and games and plate appearances, he was the all-time leader in “want to.”
How can you not like a song about Pete Rose with the line “He’s going to be in the Hall of Fame one day”?
The artist is this guy:
I tried to consolidate your original post and your correction. Let me know if I didn’t represent your intentions correctly.
Nice. Thanks.
He sure seemed like he “belonged” at 3rd base when the Reds were dominating in the 70’s. I don’t recall Sparky saying, “Woe is me, Pete is below average, I don’t know where to play him.” And as for natural ability, I’d say the guy with the most hits in history probably had a decent amount of natural ability.
To make your point, you kinda made him sound like some staggering schmuck who only had success because he worked hard. He was a lot more than that. He was the prototypical spark plug.
He’s the all-time hits leader because he’s the all-time leader in plate appearances – by a very wide margin (the equivalent of three full seasons more than the second-highest guy). He played almost every game for almost 20 seasons, then tacked on a few more seasons at the end.
For his last seven seasons, his combined WAR was -1.2, meaning that he was playing at a minor league level. In that period he had an OPS+ of 92 (.274/.354/333). Those would be mediocre numbers for a slick-fielding middle infielder, but he was playing first base, where his production was well below average. Not many teams are looking for a first baseman who hits six homers in seven years. Basically, he pulled in his last 900 hits as a below-average player on a crusade to set the record.
As for his defense, his lifetime dWAR was minus 13, and third base was arguably his worst position. His range factor per nine innings was 2.44 playing third, compared to a league average of 2.96. He played there because Sparky had every position covered with potential all-stars except third base and left field. Pete had been the left fielder in 1972-1974, and did a solid job. That was definitely his best position. But when Foster became a regular in 1975, Sparky had to keep his mighty bat in the line-up. Foster wasn’t going to the hot corner, so Pete got the third base job and Driessen became the utility guy. (Presumably) Foster wasn’t capable of playing third base at all.
The fact of the matter is that baseball’s all-time hits leader wasn’t even that good a hitter. He’s tied for 178th in batting average, and his lifetime OPS+ was only 118 – that’s 465th of all time.
He got where he got because he was Charlie Hustle – aggressive, determined, stubborn, and enduring.
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I made that case too aggressively. Pete was an excellent player 1965-76, and was solid for three more years after that. In those 15 seasons he batted .316 with an OPS+ of 130 and had 3063 hits. That is HoF level, and that’s how we should remember him, not by the years when he clung on to get the hits record as a weak-hitting first baseman and a liability to his teams.
Well, that’s how we should remember him as a PLAYER. I try not to remember his extracurricular activities at all.
For the length of his career, a .303 ba and .375 obp is pretty damn impressive. Yes, he was not a big time power hitter, but he was a very good hitter and he did have some pop. Most guys would love to have his career avg and on-base in one season today. I hope you aren’t comparing his numbers to all time numbers. The early part of the century had a lot of guys around .400, very different game. Pete Rose played in a period where pitching was quite good. Not the best power hitter, but he was an excellent hitter.
I believe I mentioned that he was an excellent player for 15 years.
1) but you can’t forget that OBP is only half of the run production equation. Sure, his career BA and OBP were more than respectable, but the ultimate measure of hitting is OPS+, and his was 118 – not that much better than mediocre.
2) the big problem with Pete as a player was the end of his career – the fact that he occupied a line-up spot in those last years when he was a liability to the teams he played for while he selfishly sought the hits record. That was especially egregious when he was player-manager giving playing time at first base to a certain run-down wreck with zero pop in his bat.
(His OPS+ can be compared to players of any era and theoretically in any ballpark. Unlike the raw percentage stats, it automatically adjusts for context.)
Given how low his production was in his final seasons, it’s hard to believe the Reds manager would ever put his name on the lineup card. Of course, I heard a rumor that Rose knew just about every shitty thing that manager had ever done in his life, even what he did as a child. Do you think there was any blackmail involved?
Pete Rose managed to be both the Ty Cobb and Black Sox of the modern era
What was the over/under on what age he’d live to? And which side was his personal action on? You know he’d bet on that.
I have read “suggestions” that he now gain entry into the HOF. Why? He’s still a disgrace, he still cheated the game/fans and he’s dead. What’s the point? It’s not like you’re correcting an injustice.
It was a lifetime ban. Presumably his lifetime. And it seems that part is over.
Also, it is just a museum—something to leave to future generations. Do we want sports students to know about Pete Rose 100 years from now?
Shoeless Joe Jackson’s ban was also a lifetime ban, and he’s still not in the HOF. He died in 1951. So hold not thy breath.
If they ever put Pete Rose in the HOF, they should put Shoeless Joe -right next to him. Actually, maybe they should set aside a piece of the HOF and call it the Hall Of Shame. That could be a place to put awful human beings with HOF-worthy stats on the backs of their baseball cards.
To the best of my knowledge, Pete never did anything to harm his team (except for writing himself into the line-up, and I suppose he thought that was a positive thing).
I’m no fan of Rose, but you can’t place him in the same category as the Black Sox. As far as we know, Pete always tried to win – and in fact tried HARD.
Not a lifetime ban, “permanently ineligible.” That’s the exact wording in the agreement.
However, that’s MLB’s position, not the Hall of Fame’s. The Hall made a rule some years ago to respect MLB’s decisions on eligibility, but the board of the Hall can change that rule any time it cares to.
He bet on his team to win. I know they don’t like gambling, although they all want to profit from it today, but it wasn’t like he was throwing games. The PED users of the 90s committed a much worse crime even if it technically wasn’t against MLB rules. Although, the use of those drugs was illegal.
Maybe he never bet against his team. We have only his word for that and he was not known to be candid. But even if he bet only on his team, the question is this – what information did Rose give his bookie (and therefore all bookies) on those days when he made no bet on his team to win?
If I had been his bookie, I would have called another bookie and bet against the Reds those days.
In addition, he bet on the team when he was a manager. A manager with big money on tonight’s game may, in a desperate attempt to win tonight, make some short-range choices with adverse long-term effects.
That’s why those rules exist.
Plus saying he never bet “against” his team is a cop-out. Perhaps he didn’t bet on them to lose, but he might have bet on the over/under for example, creating situations that could require him to manipulate the game.
I used to be fairly ambivalent about letting Rose into the HOF, but seeing how much major league owners are getting paid by legal sportsbooks to run ads encouraging their fans to gamble on major league baseball demonstrates just how hypocritical it is to keep Rose out of the HOF. Every pregame show has a segment where an announcer or analyst suggests a bet fans could/should place with Draft Kings, FanDuels, Ceaser’s, or, well, you get the picture. Personally, I think those ads are disgusting, but the whole situation reminds me of The Godfather and the fight over whether the Corleone family should get involved in the narcotics trade. There was so much money in that white powder that if the Corleone family didn’t sell it, the other families would get richer and be able to buy all the politicians and judges that up to then had been in Don Corleone’s pocket.
If an MLB owner refuses to let these legal bookies advertise on their games, the other teams will end up richer and better able to afford the best free-agent players. If Steve Cohen wasn’t raking in all that sportsbook moula, how would he be able to afford to snatch Juan Soto from the Yankees? Of course, just because the federal government now allows sports gambling doesn’t mean the owners couldn’t prohibit all players, coaches, and anyone employed by an MLB team, an MLB league, or the MLB organization from going anywhere near a sportsbook or put it in their contracts that broadcasters and RSNs were not allowed to advertise on baseball games. Of course, that would require the owners to put the best interests of their fans and their sport ahead of making a metric fuck ton of money.
So what’s the line on Game Two of the Mets – Brewers series?
Frankly, Pete lied for so long that it’s not clear what he really did.
If the previous three statements were all exposed as lies, forcing him to change his story each time, I’m not inclined to believe the last one either. The only thing I believe is that he was never caught placing other kinds of bets on the Reds.
Don’t care what anyone thinks belongs in hall
Once upon a time was a diehard rose/big red machine fan, but now he can suck eggs … in hell!
Yielding back the balance of my time.
They proved mathematically that Shoeless Joe actually played his heart out. Pete Rose proved no one could trust him.
That could not be more wrong.
First of all, Shoeless Joe admitted that he didn’t play as hard as he could. (1) He told the judge that, in chambers, before his grand jury testimony, as the judge later had to testify in Joe’s back pay trial; (2) He admitted to a gaggle of Chicago reporters later that same night that he and the others tried and failed to throw game three; (3) He admitted in his grand jury testimony that – in his exact words – “we went ahead and threw the second game, we went after him again.” (“Him” refers to Chick Gandil, a teammate who was supposed to deliver the promised pay-off, but may have double-crossed his own teammates, although Gandil claimed that the gamblers stiffed him.)
Second – Joe was actually jailed on more than 100 counts of perjury for his testimony in his own back pay suit.
Third – the facts in the games that the Sox definitely tried to lose (the first five) show that Joe struck out looking in a critical at bat (something basically he never did), and failed in every single opportunity with runners in scoring position, several of them in very suspicious circumstances.
Fourth – in the course of the series Joe made at least three flubs in the field that were noted as unusual by sportswriters, player-commentators and his honest teammates – not in hindsight, but all contemporaneously, before they even knew the series was fixed.
Fifth – Joe continued to lie about his participation throughout his life, going so far as to dispute the official stats with outlandish claims of success!
Sixth – There was one time when Joe called Commissioner Landis to ask for a chance to explain his position. Landis told sportswriter Frank O’Neill: “Jackson phoned and asked whether I would give him a fair hearing. I said I give every man a fair hearing. Jackson said, ‘Thanks, Judge. Do you know that those gamblers never paid all they owed me?'” (“Rothstein” by David Petrusza, p. 366) The fair hearing ended there.
If you are interested, I have written extensively on the Black Sox scandal, documented by the original sources (contemporary newspaper articles, trial transcripts, etc.) The section on Joe Jackson is here.
This is the complete study, the sum total of which is as long or longer than a book:
Part I: Bucky Weaver
Part II: Shoeless Joe Jackson
Part III: Arnold Rothstein
Part IV: Charles Comiskey
Part V: “Follow the Money”
Part VI: Tying Up The Loose Ends, Wrapping It Up
———————
We all know that Rose was a liar, but (1) nowhere near as big a liar as Jackson; (2) always tried his best to win, as far as we know, while Jackson did not.